Discussion: SGR Fair Play Rules

Yesterday Dark Comet Games/Firesky released some SGR fair play rules on what is cheating and what is not cheating.

You can see the list here: http://forums.stargateworlds.com/showthread.php?t=35213

What do you guys think of the list? do you guys think its fair?

I think this sounds quite fair and am happy with the rules, it makes it a lot clearer. It also defines the term exploit (although I don't think this term is quite apt) but none the less, much better.

Two things,

3) Using console commands to gain an advantage. This is cheating

Wonder if this relates to FOV, it says at the bottom that Devs are working on FOV, but is it still okay to use it until its sorted?

Also Goauld & Kinetic Wave, for some reason (I am not 100% sure) Goauld can still use kinetic wave attack through walls? Could someone confirm this, it doesn't seem fair a Goauld can attack through a wall, when no other Class can.

Originally Posted by Ben_Maxwell

I think this sounds quite fair and am happy with the rules, it makes it a lot clearer. It also defines the term exploit (although I don't think this term is quite apt) but none the less, much better.

Two things,

3) Using console commands to gain an advantage. This is cheating

Wonder if this relates to FOV, it says at the bottom that Devs are working on FOV, but is it still okay to use it until its sorted?

Also Goauld & Kinetic Wave, for some reason (I am not 100% sure) Goauld can still use kinetic wave attack through walls? Could someone confirm this, it doesn't seem fair a Goauld can attack through a wall, when no other Class can.

3) that's a /do something command (yes/no) only asking becouse i relly dont know,

9) If you work around the red X on the crosshair to shoot any form of weaponry through walls, then you are exploiting

well sniper rifle -stops working when jaffa get within several meter of you (also when it pokes though the Jaffa battering you to death)

(Note: if i found a stratagy for beating flashbangs (ie~noticed something about how they work ~ that an exploite or paying attention

~ mind you it only works with 1 flashbang 50% of the time multiple flashbangs no chance of it working

The rules sound fair to me.We should all be on equal terms in the game and skill should determine the outcome.

Would dominating the other team so bad that most of them rage quit be considered a work around of the auto balance system(10)?

what is this "rule" you speak of?
no, i kid. rules are fine.

Console commands like FOV I believe is alright or else they would of dropped the hammer but like one using it for aimbots an gameplay help I belive is what their getting at. Because Gabe has Already talked about them working on a better FOV in game.

Sounds fair to me

I welcome the Post. I think it's common sense stuff that everyone should know but some players seemed to have the attitude that because nothing like this existed there were no rules.

I might have preferred something more top down and official sounding rather than something that specifically addresses points that are currently in contention - this should be a touchstone we come back to for (hopefully) years to come - but it does the job.

My only issue is with this:

Originally Posted by Gabriel_FS

8) If you can place a gun turret in a hard to reach location you are not cheating, If there is an area that we really really think turrets should not be allowed then we will disable turrets in that area in a subsequent patch.

I agree that they are not cheating but a lot of the areas where turrets are placed are obviously clipping and a player would not be able to shoot at those angles from those positions without the red x stopping them. The phrasing of this post suggests to me that this is accepted behaviour for bot characters that is unacceptable for real players and will not be addressed. That may just be me though. I had hoped that the patch with the red x was going to apply it to the turrets as well.

Originally Posted by Ben_Maxwell

3) Using console commands to gain an advantage. This is cheating

Wonder if this relates to FOV, it says at the bottom that Devs are working on FOV, but is it still okay to use it until its sorted?

I agree with Maddog, they took out a lot of console commands but left this one in. They are working on changing the system but it is still useable as is.

I would say from my personal perspective if the only reason a player changes their field of view is to see the Ashrak sneaking up on them then they shouldn't use it. But that is just my personal view. (I honestly did not see that pun when I wrote it lol)

Originally Posted by lasarith

(Note: if i found a stratagy for beating flashbangs (ie~noticed something about how they work ~ that an exploite or paying attention

~ mind you it only works with 1 flashbang 50% of the time multiple flashbangs no chance of it working

That would depend on what it is I would think, mate. Ask them. PM a Dev (or Moderator?) and tell them how you do it; if it is a bug then they can add it to the list to be fixed and advise you not to use it, if it's not you can use it in good conscience.

i use the fov command. i much prefer tps to fps, but i don't like to be so close, so i set it to 90. it probably should be limited though. if you set it real high to see ashraks behind, then i suppose that is cheating, but the resulting headache might be punishment enough.

Originally Posted by blevok

....but the resulting headache might be punishment enough.

Note that some people can easily play with high FOV without headache Just abstracting from the game as a screen. (I'm one of them )

Originally Posted by Supremeaaron

Yesterday Dark Comet Games/Firesky released some SGR fair play rules on what is cheating and what is not cheating.

You can see the list here: http://forums.stargateworlds.com/showthread.php?t=35213

What do you guys think of the list? do you guys think its fair?

The Gods! They listen! I'm so happy they did this. This is what I wanted. Thank you. Thank you. I bow to your awesomeness.

Originally Posted by Gabriel_FS

9) If you work around the red X on the crosshair to shoot any form of weaponry through walls, then you are exploiting

So if i am chasing someone and they run into their spawn, and the spawn doors close the moment i shoot (thus going through the spawn doors), then i am an exploiter? If i am chasing someone around a corner and shoot my weapon during the 1/2 sec (much, much, more if you have a high ping) it takes the red X to appear, then i am an exploiter? If i'm a scientist and i use poison while standing NEAR (not up against) a wall and my poison goes through the paper thin wall, then i am an exploiter?

Originally Posted by Gabriel_FS

10) If you work around the auto balancing system to unfairly stack one team. Then you are exploiting

So if my clan/any player joins the server at the exact same moment as another person does, we/they are exploiters? So i am not allowed to play on the same team with my friends?

These "fair play" rules are absurd, they allow for people to accidentally, through no fault of their own, become exploiters, and if they are only intended for people who use it intentionally then how do you easily prove who uses it intentionally and who does not, can they not always respond "it was unintentional and mere coincidence"?

Rather then banning/punishing people for these "exploits" why don't you instead fix the auto-balance system and the broken red X. It is especially unfair to the majority of the player base as they do not read these forums and have no way of knowing about these rules.

If these bugs are not going to be fixed, and if they are going to be enforced, then ban me now because i am unwilling to pay constant attention to whether or not my staff is sticking through a corner when i am chasing someone down, and i'm not going to follow any rule which inhibits me from enjoying the game by playing with my friends.

Frankly i'm getting tired of all the bull, so if i get baned for this then so be it.

Originally Posted by Scott Morrison

That would depend on what it is I would think, mate. Ask them. PM a Dev (or Moderator?) and tell them how you do it; if it is a bug then they can add it to the list to be fixed and advise you not to use it, if it's not you can use it in good conscience.

Done. ..

Originally Posted by Rivalen

So if i am chasing someone and they run into their spawn, and the spawn doors close the moment i shoot (thus going through the spawn doors), then i am an exploiter? If i am chasing someone around a corner and shoot my weapon during the 1/2 sec (much, much, more if you have a high ping) it takes the red X to appear, then i am an exploiter? If i'm a scientist and i use poison while standing NEAR (not up against) a wall and my poison goes through the paper thin wall, then i am an exploiter?

I agree totally. The way I see it, is to take the game at face value; if something is possible to do without modifying anything, its fair play. If not, it must the ability to do it should be removed. If its expected that players will follow rules not enforced by the game, we might as well post the ten commandments here and hope people will follow that .

Particularly with the red X, if players have to suffer with the negatives of the red X, they should be able to benefit, in addition to the fact that it is sometimes easy to err. These rules are bound to start huge in-game arguments, and a deluge of reports to devs about petty "exploits".

Yes, it can seem unfair sometimes to people when their doors are being shot through, or their turret is sticking through a wall and gets destroyed. There is always place in the spawn to avoid being shot at. What you really don't like is being spawn camped, but I don't see that on the list of rules (*hides*) .

Originally Posted by Rivalen

So if my clan/any player joins the server at the exact same moment as another person does, we/they are exploiters? So i am not allowed to play on the same team with my friends?

I agree, and I feel that this rule is unclear and unenforceable. What exactly is the point of it? Is someone going to be banned for going on the wrong team? I'm confused.

Originally Posted by Rivalen

Frankly i'm getting tired of all the bull, so if i get baned for this then so be it.

I wouldn't go that far , its unenforceable in this state as its unclear. I do think having rules are a good idea, so that some borderline bugs cannot be exploited ( for example, having rules when the changeteam bug was prevalent would have given some authority to players of an existing game requesting an SGC ashrak to stop ).

As for the rules against normal gameplay (smoke grenades, nade jumping, turret placement), the same argument above goes, that is, if something is possible to do without modifying anything, its fair play, just as any other game. The fact that is even in the rules annoys me greatly, making me think that all the people who haven't yet learned to play a class, and are bad at it will prevail in suggesting what shouldn't be allowed. Rules against normal gameplay are almost unenforcable. ("Oh no! I've got a screenshot of you throwing a smoke grenade!", "You just nade jumped! I'm gonna report you to the devs!", etc.).

IMO, fov should be completely modifyable. So what if you can see an ashrak behind. If you are fast enough to do something about it, then go ahead. I rarely use it, 'cause I keep forgetting to put it on, but its just a visual aid that gives more awareness. Never found it helped much for ashraks. It also has a great disadvantage that aiming is far more difficult as the center of the screen squishes together, making the target tiny, a nice tradeoff. Also, whats to stop someone from using some gfx card effects to distort the screen in many crazy ways to give them an unfair advantage (answer: nothing; just a point, not an argument).

I agree that in general console commands should follow a deny/allow policy. Keep in mind though, that many commands might be possible to accomplish in the ini files.

In general, for cheating, it would be nice if there was a monitor on the server side that for example could tell if someone was running too fast, regenerating too fast, etc. or using other clues if to point out if someone was cheating.

I've recently seen some people cheating (really cheating, like unlimited running, repeatadly), and some others cheating in that they score in a CTF against the wishes of their own teammates. I've been recording most of my games, and if I sift through the video, I might even be able to find them heh, but I don't have the patience. These rules give more of an authority to the gamers to insist someone to stop (this rule isn't even in their), but they are certainly unenforcable during gameplay, and even after, it is too much bother .

Originally Posted by Rivalen

So if i am chasing someone and they run into their spawn, and the spawn doors close the moment i shoot (thus going through the spawn doors), then i am an exploiter? If i am chasing someone around a corner and shoot my weapon during the 1/2 sec (much, much, more if you have a high ping) it takes the red X to appear, then i am an exploiter? If i'm a scientist and i use poison while standing NEAR (not up against) a wall and my poison goes through the paper thin wall, then i am an exploiter?

Not a work around so...wouldn't have thought so.

Originally Posted by Rivalen

So if my clan/any player joins the server at the exact same moment as another person does, we/they are exploiters? So i am not allowed to play on the same team with my friends?

Again, not a work around so wouldn't have thought so. I also wouldn't be so clan-centric though.

Originally Posted by Rivalen

Rather then banning/punishing people for these "exploits" why don't you...

Interesting point - there's nothing in the Fair Play Rules regarding consequences or punishment for exploiters.

Originally Posted by Rivalen

they allow for people to accidentally, through no fault of their own, become exploiters, and if they are only intended for people who use it intentionally then how do you easily prove who uses it intentionally and who does not, can they not always respond "it was unintentional and mere coincidence"?

They also don't give guidelines for how to report exploiters. Personally I ask people politely not to use the exploit on three occassions and then report them to a Dev or forum Moderator using a Private Message (http://forums.stargateworlds.com/sho...&postcount=34). I will try to get a Screen Print if I can but often miss the offending incident. Not everybody uses the same three strike policy I do (am I too lenient or they too harsh?) and not everybody can get Screen Prints.

While I think Rivalen was more venting anger than trying to be constructive I think this has been. I think they should add a section for consequences and clarify a reporting procedure. What do you guys think?

Originally Posted by Rivalen

So if i am chasing someone and they run into their spawn, and the spawn doors close the moment i shoot (thus going through the spawn doors), then i am an exploiter? If i am chasing someone around a corner and shoot my weapon during the 1/2 sec (much, much, more if you have a high ping) it takes the red X to appear, then i am an exploiter? If i'm a scientist and i use poison while standing NEAR (not up against) a wall and my poison goes through the paper thin wall, then i am an exploiter?

Id say if they open the door themselfs then it's okay, - ~be prepaed be be shoot @

if you,re doing it when its closed or bug, then id say expolit -but just my oppion.

Originally Posted by realazthat

if players have to suffer with the negatives of the red X, they should be able to benefit, in addition to the fact that it is sometimes easy to err.

So because you've suffered an unintended consequence of a bug fix you should get to exploit the bug!?

Come off it mate.

I suffer from red x delay. It's cost me kills and it has caused my death. I'm still vehemently against you sticking your weapon through a wall or spawn door and firing at me and I will still ask you to stop and report you if you won't.

Originally Posted by realazthat

Yes, it can seem unfair sometimes to people when their doors are being shot through, or their turret is sticking through a wall and gets destroyed. There is always place in the spawn to avoid being shot at. What you really don't like is being spawn camped, but I don't see that on the list of rules (*hides*)

No, it's losing 88 health points in the safe zone before you can defend yourself. And it's not only used at Spawn Doors, just most obviously. It's been explicitly stated that you are not to do this. Please don't.

Originally Posted by realazthat

As for the rules against normal gameplay (smoke grenades, nade jumping, turret placement), the same argument above goes, that is, if something is possible to do without modifying anything, its fair play, just as any other game. The fact that is even in the rules annoys me greatly, making me think that all the people who haven't yet learned to play a class, and are bad at it will prevail in suggesting what shouldn't be allowed. Rules against normal gameplay are almost unenforcable. ("Oh no! I've got a screenshot of you throwing a smoke grenade!", "You just nade jumped! I'm gonna report you to the devs!", etc.).

You seem to have misread this bit. The guideline is saying these are NOT exploits.

I disagree with you about FOV but purely from a personal view point. If you are using a different FOV and happen to get an edge, fair enough until it's changed by the Devs and no need for you to stop - but if you are using it purely to get the edge... there I think it's wrong and people should stop doing it. The devs have said they are working to stop that unintended advantage.

Originally Posted by realazthat

I've recently seen some people cheating (really cheating, like unlimited running, repeatadly), and some others cheating in that they score in a CTF against the wishes of their own teammates... These rules give more of an authority to the gamers to insist someone to stop (this rule isn't even in their), but they are certainly unenforcable during gameplay, and even after, it is too much bother .

That's a fair point. Knowingly exploiting a Spawn Bug should be in there. If people are telling them they are bugged and asking them not to score they have no excuse. Particularly as there is no consequences/punishment section - it should be there for those people as a guide so they don't knowingly use their accidental advantage.

Originally Posted by Scott Morrison

I suffer from red x delay. It's cost me kills and it has caused my death. I'm still vehemently against you sticking your weapon through a wall or spawn door and firing at me and I will still ask you to stop and report you if you won't.

Regardless of how much I enjoy playing with you mate.

I,vf Seen at lest one persion playing in the game, who seems to have (lack of better tearm (super powers) or he's relly relly relly good at playing,

i also suspect he's a GM though! ?:\

(speed, accuracy and a hellva lot of shoots to kill him)

Originally Posted by Scott Morrison

You seem to have misread this bit. The guideline is saying these are NOT exploits.

I didn't misread. Read what I said carefully; what I was saying is that they are obviously not exploits, and it annoys me that it is in the rules (stating such an obvious thing is allowed additionally makes me feel that other obvious things might not be allowed, eg. sprinting, jumping, stabbing, shooting, killing ...).

Yes, consequences should be plainly said, but as of yet, has anything ever been done to anybody for anything? ie. what consequences? Although I disagree with you about what should be considered an exploit, I do agree that there should be consequence However, I don't think players can be relied upon to report players. If you say you will report me, and I'm malicious, we could have a big lie contest ( "he cheated!, no he cheated!" ), etc.

One more monkey wrench: unless you manage to get a screenshot or recording, players can easily change names, and it would be a big bother to look up who each player was at what time. I've had someone ragequit on me for killing him too many times, only to return 5 mins later using {SL##realazthat, instead of [SL]realazthat. It was quite funny to see "[SL]realazthat shreds {SL##realazthat" etc., but the point is, a players name can easily be besmirched, and a hacker/cheater/exploiter etc. can easily hide behind a false name.

My overall point in my previous post is that being too worried about the wrong type of "exploiter" is foolish.

"ARRR!"

"Bow before your god! On your knees! Kill the rest!"

PS.

If you fail to agree with every point above %100, I will have you shoved up an incoming stargate by my loyal Jaffa!

Originally Posted by realazthat

I didn't misread. Read what I said carefully; what I was saying is that they are obviously not exploits, and it annoys me that it is in the rules (stating such an obvious thing is allowed additionally makes me feel that other obvious things might not be allowed, eg. sprinting, jumping, stabbing, shooting, killing ...).

Yes, consequences should be plainly said, but as of yet, has anything ever been done to anybody for anything? ie. what consequences? Although I disagree with you about what should be considered an exploit, I do agree that there should be consequence However, I don't think players can be relied upon to report players. If you say you will report me, and I'm malicious, we could have a big lie contest ( "he cheated!, no he cheated!" ), etc.

One more monkey wrench: unless you manage to get a screenshot or recording, players can easily change names, and it would be a big bother to look up who each player was at what time. I've had someone ragequit on me for killing him too many times, only to return 5 mins later using {SL##realazthat, instead of [SL]realazthat. It was quite funny to see "[SL]realazthat shreds {SL##realazthat" etc., but the point is, a players name can easily be besmirched, and a hacker/cheater/exploiter etc. can easily hide behind a false name.

My overall point in my previous post is that being too worried about the wrong type of "exploiter" is foolish.

"ARRR!"

"Bow before your god! On your knees! Kill the rest!"

PS.

If you fail to agree with every point above %100, I will have you shoved up an incoming stargate by my loyal Jaffa!

I'm with Scott. I know there are some people who don't think spraying through doors and force fields is exploiting but if I get a Screenie of you doing it I'm going to be reporting you to the nearest Dev. I'm glad we have these rules. They of course are going to need to be tweaked as time goes on.

Think of this as a rough draft.

Originally Posted by Scott Morrison

While I think Rivalen was more venting anger than trying to be constructive I think this has been. I think they should add a section for consequences and clarify a reporting procedure. What do you guys think?

Ya this was more to vent anger then anything, i recently enough had a heated argument with a certain FireSky employee (not Gabe to be clear)... the main reason is because with every new patch new bugs come out (wtf testers i takes me all of 5 min ingame to find a game-breaking bug [sending info to Gabe as it shouldn't be public]) which further increased my anger.

To be clear i don't really have a problem with the rest of the fair play rules, its simply that the red X and team balancing do not fix what they are supposed to fix, and they only make matters more frustrating for me.

Lol Real! (bow before the pirate Goa'uld)

I think they were specified because of a Thread Quack (?) started. I agree they should not be in, I'm looking for a guide with longevity.

I have certainly seen one player I had to report in game since and they seemed none the worse for wear - and their stats should have provided ample back up to the evidence supplied. I noticed that they were in a clan now but I didn't recognise it as one whose members I had played against before. They seemed to be on the straight and narrow for the match I played with them before getting bumped from the server though.

I'm a believer in the Police by Consent model and believe most of us follow the rules and if advised that we were breaking them would stop (go British Police). Only for those that don't do we need the recourse to report them. I kind of want to go into more detail on my view point on this but it's 0100 here and I can't sleep, my brain is too tired to elaborate coherently, I think it makes sense though.

As for players changing their names - there will be a record somewhere of the name changes and almost certainly an interrogatable list of recent changes. All you can do there is report them. Shame that happened to you, some people are just unfathomable. At least they stopped and no lasting damage was done to your reputation.

Originally Posted by Rivalen

To be clear i don't really have a problem with the rest of the fair play rules, its simply that the red X and team balancing do not fix what they are supposed to fix, and they only make matters more frustrating for me.

Agreed. Good try but doesn't work.

I've not had a chance to play the new patch yet. Just finished the download when I went to bed. Stupid allergies are keeping me up. Hope the new bug's not too bad.